George Papandreou — Democracy, Leadership and the Future of Humanity

00:00:00: I'm really thrilled for today's guest.

00:00:03: For so many reasons, i have a guest who stood at the center of modern Greek history.

00:00:11: but beyond politics and public life he is also someone Who has spent decades thinking deeply about democracy peace humanity And the future of our world.

00:00:23: in A time when nations struggle with divisions uncertainty Our conversation today is not simply about politics, it's about the human condition itself.

00:00:37: And I can't think of a more fitting guest than the one you're about to meet and It is my great honor To welcome the former prime minister of Greece Mr George Papandreou.

00:00:52: Mark very nice to see you!

00:00:55: All the best on your new endeavor.

00:00:58: This is a great podcast you're doing about humanity.

00:01:02: Thank you, thank you and yeah having people like you help see it immensely.

00:01:07: And for people in the world to listen and to see us into You know participate In what's going on today.

00:01:15: so before you became prime minister?

00:01:19: Before politics became history What first awakened your sense of responsibility for humanity?

00:01:28: My first understanding a little bit about humanity was when I was very young and we traveled from the United States, my first big trip on an ocean liner called Olympia.

00:01:44: From New York to Athens And we stopped in Scotland then the UK Then in Rotterdam then in Lisbon than in Marseille then in Naples finally two Piraeus in Greece.

00:01:58: So all of a sudden as little kid I saw what very wide breadth, certain part of humanity obviously.

00:02:06: But it opened up my minds.

00:02:08: but um...I would say that My experience about What i felt About Humanity was and giving to humanity Was developed much more during the fight Of both my whole country's fights in Greece As I lived through political turmoil dictatorships and fight for democracy seeing my grandfather, and my father jailed during the dictatorship.

00:02:36: I had a gun put to my head when my father was arrested And then finally going into exile in Sweden.

00:02:43: What really gave me sense of wanting to serve Was this solidarity that i felt When we were outcast.

00:02:55: We were exiled And we were welcomed with open arms in Sweden by everybody on the street, by intellectual groups.

00:03:09: The artists and politicians or writers.

00:03:15: Their fight was our fight.

00:03:18: that solidarity really gave me a sense of this is how it should be.

00:03:23: We can work together to fight for a better world.

00:03:29: And so that sense of giving, the day gave me something I felt they should give back?

00:03:37: It's such a beautiful answer and...I believe everyone in this world can understand it because we all have some of those in us.

00:03:47: you know i come from family too where was born in South Africa but my grandparents were Lithuanian and Polish.

00:03:59: I've had a sense to try and do something, to change the world by not being in exile.

00:04:04: Like didn't have a gun to my head but it certainly gives you a sense of trying to make a difference in the world And i think that's such a wonderful purpose That uh... You & I share Do you find that leadership is lacking in humanity today?

00:04:35: I think the leaders are many ways captured by situations we're in.

00:04:48: The political systems have narrowed down what politics really is, so let's go over.

00:04:56: the word politics coming from ancient Athens comes to them from the word being a member of the city, Portis.

00:05:05: You are part of our city so basic just participating in this is politics.

00:05:14: but it's more than that.

00:05:16: actually is revelation.

00:05:20: at that time very important revelation.

00:05:22: all around the world there were kings and tyrants and emperors high priests.

00:05:32: They were the ones that decided the fate of their societies.

00:05:36: they were the one's who ruled there in a little small town and not only Athens but many other small cities, There was a revelation hey we don't need tyrants We Don't Need Kings!

00:05:49: We don't Need High Priests!

00:05:51: WE!

00:05:53: We The Average Citizens!

00:05:55: We Can Run Our Own Lives!

00:05:57: We can imagine better world We can imagine a better society and we can collectively make it.

00:06:05: That was a huge revolution in thinking, but brought about not only imagination... It's very logical that they would have brought the sciences, arts, theater or music together to think.

00:06:23: why?

00:06:23: Because if people are the ones who will decide then The more we think, the more we create.

00:06:30: You know even games are better ourselves and our society will be.

00:06:40: And what I think is that capacity to imagine a better world because politics now has become for the politician as you see it today very narrow type of activity where representative who was elected has to walk a tightrope

00:06:59: between

00:07:00: polls, between funding.

00:07:04: How much money we'll get to run his campaign?

00:07:07: Between tweet or post on one of the social media platforms whether he will be or she would be bullied or not.

00:07:17: what will be the sort of ephemeral immediate reaction?

00:07:21: oh I got you know how many likes are this?

00:07:24: that destroys imagination.

00:07:27: It destroys the capacity to really think deeply, but in a wider sense.

00:07:33: so we have narrowed what politics is and of course also see politics captured by big money.

00:07:42: absolutely it's quite unbelievable that you know the world has changed so much.

00:07:55: I'm trying to imagine a better world in this.

00:07:59: And, um...I don't know what the exact answers are but i am also

00:08:05: very

00:08:05: so proud to live in country like Greece which is my new home Which gave the World Democracy and ...i have such an appreciation for Greek language.

00:08:18: of course as you say everything comes from greece part of the history in The Making, because do you believe that modern democracy is now in danger globally and especially coming from Greece where democracy was created?

00:08:43: Yes.

00:08:43: Democracy is in danger.

00:08:45: I happen to also be have the honor being in the Council Of Europe as a parliamentary member and had been given a mandate, which is very ambitious mandate called the General Rapporteur for Democracy.

00:09:04: So I have to really think through what democracy is going?

00:09:08: Through What are the problems?

00:09:14: How it can be resuscitated or rebuilt or rethought.

00:09:18: And we do see a decline in democracy around governance.

00:09:26: I think there is now in the world, we only have about twenty-five one fourth of humanity living in democracy.

00:09:34: Really?

00:09:34: Don't know that!

00:09:35: Yes

00:09:37: this from statistics form an organization Sweden and Gothenburg called VDEM.

00:09:42: they do annual reports And They Have Seen A Deep Decline In Democracy Of Course The Latest Country Where This Decline Has Been Dramatic Of Course Is United States America.

00:09:56: What I feel One of the basic reasons why we see this decline is that Not that people don't want democracy not that people.

00:10:06: Don't want their voice to be heard That's it People, don't have a say in their lives.

00:10:11: and then there are societies But they're not having with them.

00:10:15: We're not delivering on that.

00:10:16: And Why?

00:10:17: Mentioned earlier i think This Is one Of The big Problems Is that We Have Seen Now A major Concentration of Power major concentration of wealth basically, which then translates into power.

00:10:33: Actually one of the reasons uh The ancient Greeks thought of democracy was to make sure that they could maintain a system Which would allow them to always be the ones that made the decisions.

00:10:48: Yes we want... We realize we can be with people can actually run our own affairs and we could make decisions on our own.

00:10:56: We don't need some, some tyrants.

00:10:57: so then let's make sure that the system doesn't allow for some tyrant to take over or some king or even a very popular person to control them become too popular to be too powerful.

00:11:12: they've had the ostracism So even popular people would be ostracized because of being too powerful.

00:11:18: How you control power was at the core of democracy, the whole thought of democracy.

00:11:25: Today let's look at that.

00:11:27: yes we

00:11:28: have huge huge concentrations.

00:11:30: well maybe unimaginably compared to other other eras and this think of The Big Tech Brothers and they're just the ones who are very very apparent because we live in our social media environment.

00:11:45: but you know You have the fossil fuel industries, you have the pharma industry by the agri-industry.

00:11:53: The finance industry and military.

00:11:57: all these are more powerful than our politicians.

00:12:00: they're more powerful then governments.

00:12:03: there's a lot of power for many of them in nations.

00:12:06: now how can we have democracy when they call shops?

00:12:12: When they decide?

00:12:13: basically they influence so much through lobbying on one hand or even corruption.

00:12:17: Not only that, they concentrate wealth away from our tax capacities within our societies.

00:12:24: They go to the Panamas or wherever came in islands with their money there.

00:12:30: But then comes back when they want too To influence politics to buy up media newspapers to buy a TV stations to buy out football teams cultural entities, museums or movie industries to hold onto digital platforms.

00:12:52: So the whole ecosystem which we have now is controlled by these people and a few people in many ways.

00:13:02: that doesn't mean we still don't have hope but we have to realize this is not democracy.

00:13:08: so people of course are frustrated and then we need to not only decline in democracy, but a sense that okay things aren't working for me.

00:13:22: Let's not blame democracy let's liberate democracy from these forces.

00:13:27: I mean i'm complete agreement with you.

00:13:31: so um you know you and I were talking just recently when I was concerned that the status quo would stay the same, and people had no hope.

00:13:45: But this situation changed!

00:13:47: And it gave me personally—and a lot of millions others—hope.

00:13:54: So can you just tell us little bit about when were there?

00:13:58: You are an observer correct?

00:14:01: I am actually an observer.

00:14:03: again what we do in the Council of Europe?

00:14:05: We also monitor each other Let's put it that way.

00:14:09: We monitor countries, so I am one of the monitors monitoring Hungary over the last four or five years.

00:14:15: So i have been seeing what's been happening.

00:14:19: What we saw is a leader who campaigned on A lot of fears That people had and maybe grievances were deeper economic or so.

00:14:32: for because don't forget We all went through a financial crisis.

00:14:36: well financial problems in a society, so there's great inequalities.

00:14:41: But the financial crisis of two thousand nine to ten which we also went through dramatically increase Also hit Hungary.

00:14:49: that brought him a leader who was promising?

00:14:54: A different way and but then he was able to consolidate power.

00:14:59: He ran for number years on fear.

00:15:02: So he said the real problem in Hungary is Migrants.

00:15:09: the real problem in Hungary is that we have these people who want to support lgdbq With a real problem and hungry.

00:15:16: Is that you know for an intervention?

00:15:18: And so on.

00:15:19: but behind all that rhetoric He was consolidating power.

00:15:25: he was taking over the justice system sounds

00:15:27: very familiar.

00:15:29: Yes, it was taken over The media.

00:15:34: It was undermining local governments.

00:15:37: He was taking over the universities and museums, he was surveilling opponents using software.

00:15:48: And with money of his own taxes or people... ...he was building an empire of his oligarchs being a oligarck himself His own wealth!

00:16:04: There were lots of corruption.

00:16:06: Finally, the people of Hungary saw through this and they said no more.

00:16:13: We have to change And fortunately—and I think that is one thing that The European Union has been able To do —is the electoral system.

00:16:21: even though it was rigged for first party There were not frauds.

00:16:28: So when the First Party switched a new party now had A huge majority.

00:16:33: Whether the system Was right or wrong That's a different question, but at least the elections did take place well.

00:16:40: Now I don't know let say in the United States who is going to monitor the united states?

00:16:44: We are monitoring Hungary and Europe played a big role on that.

00:16:48: Who was gonna monitor The United States or other countries that have no such mechanisms To say hey stop you know democracy has certain rules so voting plays very important role.

00:16:58: It's not the only thing democracy hasn't that i want make that point.

00:17:02: we need other forms too.

00:17:04: But yes, voting is crucial and the Hungarian people wanted to change.

00:17:09: Now of course we'll see what a new leader does but first signs are that he's really trying to reinstate sense of justice and democratic rule.

00:17:27: We're bearing witness too all this.

00:17:31: thank you for your eloquent answer.

00:17:34: And it's important,

00:17:35: Mark because as you said these are signs that we see elsewhere.

00:17:41: But don't forget the Heritage.

00:17:43: twenty-twenty five which then became the program of The new administration in the US has been inspired by orbit

00:17:56: correct I know.

00:17:57: so this is We're seeing similar processes similar approaches, similar ways.

00:18:06: These are of course not known human history but we're seeing how power is slowly being usurped concentrated and taken away from people.

00:18:19: I see that in my own history having grown up in South Africa during a very interesting period of apartheid And so born witness to many changes in society and politics.

00:18:36: And my family moved away to Australia, it's interesting how I feel that being back in the European Union is as you said.

00:18:50: there are mechanisms which don't exist in most other countries but I will always believe in hope.

00:19:02: I'm an artist, a musician and sometimes it takes a detour And...I've seen the light at end of tunnel In my own heart That change is slowly taking place.

00:19:17: Hungry was first sign for me which i really appreciate.

00:19:23: It's very important But since you know..i am Greek now I'm a citizen of the world and I am American.

00:19:30: Welcome, welcome.

00:19:32: We're

00:19:32: very happy that Mark has become Greek

00:19:35: And you know The heritage in the history of Greece is so profound for me.

00:19:41: So i want to ask you A crazy question If Socrates was alive today What questions do You think he would Ask the World Leaders?

00:19:53: Very important actually.

00:19:55: He Would ask a few Questions.

00:19:58: Maybe one of the major questions he would ask is, okay I see you are building these amazing machines.

00:20:06: You have great powers!

00:20:09: You've done something that...you almost become gods yourselves in a way where you created new technologies and now even AI and so on.

00:20:22: Have you developed wisdom to govern this power as well?

00:20:28: I've developed the wisdom to make sure that these powers serve a just society.

00:20:35: A society that is flourishing or eudaimonia, for our use in the end going to be seeing a society with which it's under influence of this technologies but then becomes chaotic divisive fragmented can equal without a sense of any wisdom.

00:21:03: I think that would be the first.

00:21:04: and then he would also most likely ask, you know we're always talking about change and innovation and new things and so on?

00:21:11: And then he will say well... You want change but are you bold enough to look at yourself?

00:21:19: ...and know yourself and change your own

00:21:22: self?".

00:21:23: So i think he would be asking these types.

00:21:28: He would also say, are you listening or only speaking?

00:21:35: Are talking about what we want to do?

00:21:40: but...are you listen to society.

00:21:42: Which

00:21:43: is exactly I was going ask next because i feel that societies have lost the ability truly listened and thats one of interesting things the world we live in now.

00:22:01: I find that a lot of people feel hopeless, they feel there have not been heard and something as you said comes with wisdom and allowing other people to speak.

00:22:15: so these are important questions for me about humanity.

00:22:22: one thing is bringing it back into music because I'm trying to reach humanity through the works of music, and i feel that The silence in between the notes are just as important as the notes And this is one of the Lectures.

00:22:40: I want to give at the next symposium Is about?

00:22:44: The ability to hold a space the ability To do nothing and listen and it's very difficult to do and so It's really beautiful that you can, uh You know Talk about the ability to listen and I don't believe in the world today.

00:23:05: This exists in democracy anymore.

00:23:08: it's

00:23:11: i think your very right.

00:23:11: you're touching on a very important point mark which Uh is has to do with democracy too.

00:23:23: Today we have no time things if you think about The swiftness of of the lives we live in, somewhat in our cave called social media or smartphones or screens.

00:23:41: It's constant impulses and some form of stimulation and quick answers, quick questions.

00:23:53: but at the same time were also developing these huge capacities technologies so swiftly where nobody knows where it's going, what's happening.

00:24:03: Things are moving so quickly and I can understand people have been feeling very insecure.

00:24:08: that's why they're looking for some kind of a savior.

00:24:11: hey hold on.

00:24:12: but i would go back to what Oak Leel only said a few days ago in his encyclical.

00:24:20: he said push the pause

00:24:23: button.

00:24:25: we read

00:24:26: time to breathe, we need time to think.

00:24:28: We need time for this class and deliberate.

00:24:31: That's what democracy needs so that we can decide what we want but not have events take

00:24:41: over.".

00:24:42: That even goes back the ancient concept of echehiria or a truce.

00:24:49: So basically the Pope was calling it a truce.

00:24:52: The Ancient Greeks had the Olympic.

00:24:55: I'm so happy you're speaking about this because it's very passionate to my heart and i was there with you when they lit the flame, and i performed my song.

00:25:04: And that's

00:25:05: right!

00:25:05: It was chilling for me to witness... Tell us a little bit about The Truce?

00:25:12: Well we were so happy Mark that you came in.

00:25:16: your wrote that song dedicated into the Olympic truce.

00:25:20: on and on with such a beautiful song.

00:25:26: And it deserves to have a song like this dedicated too, because its'a great concept!

00:25:37: We will be doing our symposium in that area next year.

00:25:42: It's the concept which basically says we need time of pause.

00:25:50: Let's pause and then celebrate humanity.

00:25:53: And in some way doing that, must inform us as to you know it's crazy.

00:25:59: we're killing each other.

00:26:02: We see so much the need of this In todays world not only in major war conflicts but we needed in our daily lives too Time to sit down think bein a community in our neighborhood, with you know friends.

00:26:21: You know what as we used to do and that was very Greek too sit at the coffee place or the piazza... Oh

00:26:27: it still is!

00:26:30: It's still there and we're trying to keep that tradition going And That's so necessary on a society.

00:26:36: We've lost that sense of community which not just only community its'a sense of time able to think through things and give meaning what's happening.

00:26:48: And then come together, okay let see we can do so.

00:26:52: the Olympic truce is a very special moment.

00:26:58: it was the oldest and longest peace treaty one thousand one hundred years.

00:27:04: he was held every four years.

00:27:08: And if you violated it, he would be fined and excluded from the particular games.

00:27:14: actually Sparta was.

00:27:15: at one point they were even fined because it had attacked a neighboring city during the truce or just before the truse.

00:27:30: I would say that the Olympics have another important message for the world.

00:27:39: I like to make a comparison because it gives very clear between the Olympic Games and Roman Arena, so the Olympic games celebrate humanity.

00:27:52: when you went into the city of Ellis just next to Olympia had to leave all your weapons.

00:27:59: go in without any weapon.

00:28:03: You competed with fair rules because you did well.

00:28:10: according to the rules, nobody could influence except you.

00:28:16: You were training with your capacity and these are not only games of athletics but also art too which we sometimes forget

00:28:28: people don't know about.

00:28:30: yes they're

00:28:31: associated with sports.

00:28:33: that's right.

00:28:34: it is just a sport thing also competition.

00:28:41: And then those who would win, would win and celebrate, but those who participated with just be.

00:28:45: it's a celebration of humanity very peaceful.

00:28:51: what is the arena?

00:28:52: It's the opposite.

00:28:53: you go in there as a gladiator or maybe not even a free person usually not.

00:28:59: uh You are there to kill or be killed.

00:29:02: its celebrating blood Celebrating violence celebrating for, and there are no rules.

00:29:10: There are no laws.

00:29:12: actually the only rule is what The Emperor in the end decides which with something we tend to do now every day on social media as little emperors come up from down.

00:29:25: so What I say?

00:29:26: Is these are two visions of our world's.

00:29:30: ?What you want to choose?

00:29:32: Do You Want To Choose a World Which Is Based On Rules And Celebrating Humanity where we can peacefully work together, which is that Olympic ideal.

00:29:41: Or do you want to choose a world like the arena?

00:29:44: Where we just fight to see who's going to dominate each other and it's a world of blood have injustice an afford.

00:29:51: these are our choices in todays' worlds And We Have To Be Very Careful What We Do.

00:29:57: Today's World Because If You Get Into The Real Arena The World Will Blow Up.

00:30:04: So I've Been Working On This And Fighting For The Idea That In modern Olympics, we need to bring back this concept and make it a global culture.

00:30:16: A pressure from below stop the wars during the Olympic.

00:30:20: Let's stop the war forever of course but if you can stop them during the olympics maybe we could have peace for ever.

00:30:26: so We've tried...we had some success.

00:30:30: North-South Korea in the Pyeongchang games went together into stadium.

00:30:36: they stopped military exercises at the time.

00:30:40: The Nagano games, Clinton decided not to bomb Iraq.

00:30:44: he was going to Bomb Iraq.

00:30:46: in Sarajevo during the Lila Haram games.

00:30:50: they stopped a war for one day fighting amongst themselves and UNICEF came in and vaccinated kids.

00:30:58: let's see what we can do in Los Angeles which is coming up.

00:31:01: it's very important.

00:31:03: I know you and i talked basically about Russia and Ukraine just before this last Olympics.

00:31:13: And you as president of the Olympic truce foundation, it's something that I think Hopefully people understand.

00:31:33: we really need to go there.

00:31:35: We're living in a binary world and because we live an attention-driven society where bad news is the attention that People are looking for just to get thumbs up.

00:31:51: It's kind of uh, a quagmire.

00:31:52: how were gonna Get out this?

00:31:54: And so I think dialogue And one thing I remember talking to you about, which is really on the top of my list.

00:32:01: Is how do we change... How did we change the frequency?

00:32:05: How do we changed the channel?

00:32:08: because i tell people who are always stuck in a new cycle and oh my god what were going to be doing with victim.

00:32:15: let's change the channel.

00:32:17: Let us start looking over here not there.

00:32:21: It s movement that hopefully gain momentum And musicians and artists are the ones who can be in the forefront of this.

00:32:31: Just last October, you were with me at The Vatican... ...and we were talking about that which was one of the messages for the Pope.

00:32:38: I said that artists and musicians will help save the world in many respects.

00:32:45: This kind of dialogue where we have more understanding Thank-you very much for that

00:32:53: We can see and athletics actually unite, how much wider beyond.

00:33:03: I mean this is what the Olympics has.

00:33:06: it's that you can have people from all over the world together competing peacefully And everybody enjoying just being together.

00:33:17: It shows how much humanity can do if wants to And the whole cultural side is so important.

00:33:28: So Mark, changing the channels... Well we need to change our channel but new channels and that's why what you're doing it very important.

00:33:40: Thank You for being part of it because It takes many people who changed their channel.

00:33:48: As a musician just on small subject towards what were talking about.

00:33:53: as a conductor and an artist or musician, my job is to open people's eyes.

00:33:59: Wake them up!

00:34:02: And when I stand in front of one hundred people sometimes... ...I see there are no light in their eyes You know?

00:34:07: My job is put light into the eyes.

00:34:11: It's same thing with society today.

00:34:14: Some say you're just an optimist.

00:34:16: Well i'm not just an optimistic but i am not pessimistic.

00:34:21: I always believe in hope, and it's the child in me perhaps that is the one pushing it forward.

00:34:27: But you know i will continue like you to meet people around the world and spread message of we can make a difference.

00:34:37: Twenty-five years ago I wrote song called The Power Of One.

00:34:43: There wasn't the really need for this para one and I should have written it now.

00:34:47: Should've waited twenty five years to write that song Although, I can always write more songs you know.

00:34:53: but again Living in Greece is very special to me And working from Greece around the world.

00:35:02: I See so many changes and so many positive changes.

00:35:06: What still gives you hope about Greece today?

00:35:15: We have had the capacity, a bit like Odysseus on an long trip going through all kinds of difficult adventures and so on but being able to adapt.

00:35:30: To learn...to renew as Kawafi would say great poet from Alexandria is you know it's even when you get to Ithaca, you've learned so much.

00:35:48: So this capacity for learning is important and i would add there's a full generation.

00:35:54: unfortunately large part of it is outside Greece young people with hope ,with experience learning from other countries too.

00:36:08: my hope is that as they decide-and hopefully do-to return the greece They are becoming force of change Force of renewal force of new ideas, a force how would you say somehow a catalyst knowing I mean being in the diaspora myself and being an exile.

00:36:28: Exactly

00:36:29: what i was always felt is we are a force of change.

00:36:32: why?

00:36:33: because we go out into our country so I go from Greece have a dictatorship when I live in a country like Sweden or later in Canada.

00:36:42: Why can't we speak like that?

00:36:44: or at least why can't?

00:36:45: We learn.

00:36:45: Why do we have to be a dictatorship, right?

00:36:47: Do we have two?

00:36:47: you know how?

00:36:48: corruption.

00:36:49: where we have we can do other things.

00:36:51: so we Immediately are there to compare and we can say there is better way.

00:36:58: And actually I say that This is how we should treat the migrants who come tour on into onto our shores.

00:37:04: they Are not should be not should not be seen as burden of our societies, but as future architects out there are societies.

00:37:13: help them to show that There is an alternative.

00:37:18: Help them become the change makers Of their society sooner or later.

00:37:23: They'll go back.

00:37:24: look at Syria.

00:37:25: How much have we invested in the Syrians?

00:37:28: In Europe where elsewhere To Become The Architects of Change?

00:37:31: or did We Just Say Are they Are they good for our labor market?

00:37:36: We keep them in some hostels or something.

00:37:39: Yeah, we're losing an opportunity to invest in them as a future change maker of the world with their kinds of societies.

00:37:48: I

00:37:50: think i need to write that down.

00:37:51: That's most beautiful quote but it is very true.

00:37:54: you know The Syrian example is perfect, it's just very recent.

00:38:02: And I see... You know?

00:38:08: ...I had this idea for a song that education makes the people grow and For me sometimes writing a song thats only three minutes long you forced to sort of put into words in music to come up with something that is powerful and palpable.

00:38:33: And because we live in this world where people only want a sound bite, you know one of the issues I think we have in the world Is People Don't Want To Understand The Depths Of Something Anymore Because They Don'T Have The Time Or they Want One Track Of A Symphony.

00:38:52: The Symphony Was Three or Four Movements.

00:38:57: Give me the top line.

00:38:59: And it's this deficiency, which I think is existing in the world that if we can try and change the channel from that end up get people to take a pause listen breathe have time To understand the whole concept of it?

00:39:25: Yeah somehow addicted to this quick stimulus which Doesn't allow us to cultivate something deeper inside of so it's we're losing out We're losing up.

00:39:42: It's becomes a little bit like Casino addiction, you know?

00:39:46: Yeah Yep

00:39:48: get a quick stimulus get a quit stimulus But your empty.

00:39:52: afterwards and just looking at social media also It has catered, well Aristotle would talk about three sides of human being.

00:40:06: The rational logical then the appetitive which is for a more animal side you know from food sex You know that.

00:40:17: but then there's the the CMOS side Which Is the dignity?

00:40:22: the sense Of pride the Sense of Being part of A community and so on but also a sense of wanting to be there.

00:40:36: And what we have is that the social media's feeding on these last two, the appetitive and sort-of recognition kind thing I want to show them which isn't false it doesn't really build balance in your soul or thinking through some issues.

00:40:58: good music is not only the appetite, it's also syncs in to really think with lyrics and so on.

00:41:07: It gives you a whole story that can make your soul sort of breathe.

00:41:16: Exactly!

00:41:19: You've worked internationally on dialogue and peace... I just don't understand why do humans repeatedly return to division despite centuries of progress, I just don't understand that.

00:41:35: It's a good question and not an easy answer but it seems as human beings we have evolved our powers much more than we have involved in wisdom.

00:41:54: As i said earlier We are using it in a way, often to dominate the other rather than solve together or even search together for common meaning if not a common truth.

00:42:21: And I would say at least immature and irresponsible when major powers that can destroy humanity, not just the world but humanity itself with nuclear and AI.

00:42:33: I'm not sitting down at a table saying hey where is humanity going?

00:42:39: Where are we going in this climate crisis or migratory flows, pandemics, AI, financial crises, inequalities exist all over the world... We have the capacity as humanity To solve or deal with these issues and you know make the world our lives much more just to eliminate poverty, you know Make people Much more in happier societies Instead of that.

00:43:09: We're competing to see who's going to be number one.

00:43:13: It's terrible it's terrible And so.

00:43:19: But we have examples where things have worked quite a long period, even though it was the Cold War.

00:43:31: It was fortunately cold not all over the world because there were hot spots in Vietnam and so on.

00:43:38: but basically we had certain rules.

00:43:45: And if you destroy that world I'm not saying this is working well or now its not that representative for example in the Security Council, you don't have countries like India or Japan.

00:43:58: Or a whole continent.

00:44:01: and where is it?

00:44:01: How are we going to have major changes of population strength capacity somehow represented in international institutions but still rule-based global society absolutely needed?

00:44:21: so have to move from the idea, or we have to stop the idea that it's a rule of the powerful and its power for law.

00:44:33: Law is what make us force not some deity

00:44:39: Exactly!

00:44:40: And you are on the forefront actually in many years.

00:44:43: Can you just tell our audience about this semi-symposium which was started by you?

00:44:49: Yes

00:44:55: Yes, and continually.

00:44:56: it's twenty-eight years now.

00:44:58: And well there was a time when we did not really know each other in the region.

00:45:03: after the Cold War.

00:45:04: We still had lots of conflicts.

00:45:06: unfortunately we do still in the Region particularly in the Middle East but then course to the Black Sea Ukraine Russia and further south Sudan Iran and so on.

00:45:18: anyway this Was a time where?

00:45:21: I said let's bring progressive thinkers young thinkers, politicians academics journalists activists together to think through where the world is going but also meet each other.

00:45:37: Yes I see each other as human beings and you know on talk and enjoy symposium means sitting in drinking together.

00:45:44: ancient Greeks did that before big decisions Plato's symposium this piece of literature, and we did so where we bring families together.

00:46:02: And it's a place to think the network but also to enjoy and meet people from many different walks of life in different ways of thinking.

00:46:13: all with what you were saying sense of hope.

00:46:17: We can do things Things can change.

00:46:20: Let see how.

00:46:22: So this year will be an Olympia outside by the sea, and one of the big issues will be how we use the powers in a wise way.

00:46:32: How do we guide our powers?

00:46:34: How to make sure that this world is not dominated by fear or violence where we can really work together.

00:46:50: I think it's about empathy.

00:46:53: It's about having people collectively together in real life, on...in a set place brings empathy that is lacking today.

00:47:04: And I'm not so sure it can survive the empathy of politics.

00:47:11: If we are yes politics as this day needs to change So politics even democratic politics.

00:47:24: So I'll give you my little theory here, but very quickly.

00:47:27: so i'm a representative...I am a politician!

00:47:30: I've been elected in My constituency and my basic purpose In the democracy is to be serving And representing my constituents The voters.

00:47:43: they voted for me and would say the wider Constituency of where I come from?

00:47:49: That's the serving part.

00:47:50: at the same time It's it's power game Who's gonna be elected?

00:47:54: who is going to be in power.

00:47:57: These two issues don't always fit the clash.

00:48:02: if you have a generally equal playing field, a fair playing field The serving side wins out.

00:48:11: But If You're In A Society Where There Are Huge Inequalities And Huge Inequalities Of Power It Becomes A Game Of Domination.

00:48:20: Who Is Gonna Win A Game?

00:48:22: and People use the rules, bend the rules.

00:48:30: Find ways around the rules so that in the end you're not really representing your constituency.

00:48:36: You are beholden to major powers concentrated powers and society.

00:48:43: So that creates a whole culture of domination.

00:48:47: Who's going to dominate over other?

00:48:49: who is gonna beat others?

00:48:52: And then that destroys any sense of cohesion, understanding.

00:48:57: It polarizes.

00:49:00: we cannot talk across the aisle We can't find ways to do together and it's not only internal but becomes global.

00:49:07: So we need to move from a logic of domination To a logical cooperation.

00:49:13: That means citizens have to think new way too.

00:49:17: One thing were bringing back is Bring citizens into the picture.

00:49:23: go back to citizens one way.

00:49:26: The ancient Athenians did this and you know Athens was not perfect.

00:49:30: slaves women were not part of society, so I'm not Hydalizing it but they were experimenting

00:49:37: exactly

00:49:38: hundred years And they survived and thrived in an area region there where?

00:49:43: There were huge empires that tried to eat them up.

00:49:47: may survive because they would democracies.

00:49:51: They Believed in the power of people our one power to people.

00:49:57: They believe that the average system had wisdom.

00:50:01: We have to go back and say listen guys girls, you know whatever You have a voice.

00:50:09: Let's hear it.

00:50:10: So what did they do?

00:50:12: They actually through sortition would choose People who would legislate.

00:50:19: so if you would be chosen for six months buy it randomly and they would sit down, okay now you have a task to see what new laws should be proposed every six months.

00:50:28: this will change.

00:50:29: You didn't know if he'd been chosen by randomly but approximately because everybody was randomly chose over lifetime two or three times you were part of the legislature.

00:50:42: What that meant is that they choose people who had to think of average citizens And gave collective wisdom.

00:50:51: Now, countries like Ireland have used this in recent years to deal with very difficult issues such as abortion.

00:50:59: They chose ninety-nine people randomly in their country sat them down for six months sit and discuss the issue of abortion.

00:51:07: shall we change the constitution or not?

00:51:10: choose the experts listen to them discuss it whatever they were from all walks of life.

00:51:15: an island a decided We had to change the Constitution went through referendum.

00:51:20: that was result.

00:51:21: So we need to get back to the people.

00:51:24: And I think that is a way.

00:51:26: when you get down, it's not a question of domination or right over your rights but how do we work together and solve these problems?

00:51:36: That spirit needs to be brought

00:51:39: up!

00:51:40: Such beautiful answer... ...and i agree with completely And once again, with all the hope that I have.

00:51:50: But what are your concerns today?

00:51:55: What is more concerning to you—the climate change and economic inequality or erosion of truth?

00:52:02: That's a really big one!

00:52:16: imagination about tomorrow, if we lose a sense of the yes-we can.

00:52:22: that is one.

00:52:24: this is the worst thing that could happen.

00:52:27: Of all three I think they are combined because we have created a global capitalist system which has allowed for huge concentration as i mentioned earlier and also decisions when fossil fuel industries are dominant and they can lobby, ask for subsidies.

00:52:56: They could be influencing our politics or even create parties that are climate change deniers... Yeah!

00:53:09: That's all linked.

00:53:10: so you have an inequality of power which gives you a sense of injustice.

00:53:16: You have this inequality power serving the few, therefore issues like climate are relegated We suffer and others maybe find their little island soon or later.

00:53:30: they will of course suffer And then go off.

00:53:33: They had great time.

00:53:35: So I think we need to really see how these things are interconnected.

00:53:42: Yeah, and then start concerns.

00:53:44: We need to reorganize.

00:53:46: we need to organize our citizens...we need to give them a sense that they can't And not only through social media.

00:53:51: Social Media The way it is today the ways controlled the way algorithms working Today Is A false Sense of Empowerment Which Actually Frustrates More.

00:54:01: It Gives more Of A sense of Loneliness Because You're Alone There you Not Even Sorry Maybe in Your Little Group.

00:54:07: But Then You Realize That's Here Not The Only Group.

00:54:10: There Are Other Groups but You Have No Conversation.

00:54:13: it doesn't read conversation.

00:54:15: It breeds hate.

00:54:16: that reads conspiracy of reads

00:54:18: its clickbait.

00:54:20: exactly, it's designed

00:54:21: and so on.

00:54:22: And is this own purpose?

00:54:25: It's not exact my mistake.

00:54:26: He's on purpose because that's what sells

00:54:30: Exactly.

00:54:32: But then of course you have actors.

00:54:34: they can use that Not only for consumer goods but four politics to create influencers or whatever who want more traffic, but Socrates would say traffic.

00:54:46: But going where?

00:54:48: You

00:54:48: know I was just on a beautiful Greek island for three days Just decompressing because i'd travel the world and work all over The World.

00:55:00: And uh...I Was sitting On A Beautiful Chair.

00:55:03: There Were A Whole Lot Of Young Women From Other Countries.

00:55:07: they weren't interested in the sea and beach, I was trying to rest.

00:55:11: They were just taking pictures of themselves because it's like how do i look at this pose?

00:55:16: Where are we going?

00:55:22: as he said where is this going?

00:55:24: you're gonna get your legs You know?

00:55:27: stop...I actually have another small incident.

00:55:33: one my friend's nieces visited us And I said, oh my God.

00:55:37: Look at the ocean!

00:55:39: look at this monument.

00:55:40: it was in the time of Socrates and Plato... ...and she was on her phone doing stories.

00:55:47: i'm like just use your eyes you know?

00:55:51: You're so remember-you don't have to video everything.. ..it's so cute because they also work a lot living China.

00:55:59: I find it very amusing, but very lovely that every time the food comes out everyone has to take a picture of their food.

00:56:06: And i just didn't try and consume it.

00:56:09: so It's actually uh...it is cute thing until its not.

00:56:14: Then then becomes no..its not cute anymore.

00:56:18: this is like use your god given eyes Your mouth and sense of smell To feel.

00:56:26: touch get in water by the way Last week on the Greek island.

00:56:32: I went in the water.

00:56:32: these girls just sat there taking pictures.

00:56:39: You go to China, I go to china also actually and everybody asked for a selfie.

00:56:45: But there was one young girl which made a mistake in English but i think that mistake Was Actually characteristic of what it is.

00:56:53: he said hey can Mr Papandreo?

00:56:57: Can I have a selfish?

00:57:01: That is so cute!

00:57:04: Very cute, but that's what it is.

00:57:06: It ends up getting into this narcissistic kind of a motive they're trying to show off.

00:57:13: and how much meaning in life can you get from there?

00:57:17: And then it feeds on itself and I think it empties out your soul and time... Going back to Plato again he has his very interesting image.

00:57:30: these people in the cave that don't know what the world outside is like, they just see shadows.

00:57:36: And somehow we're on a cave of our... This is this new cave!

00:57:40: We are stuck there and everything's curated.

00:57:44: you know even?

00:57:45: It's little bit worse actually because we linked to the world but it's not a real-world.

00:57:54: At least if they could speak with each other now sit down at table And they are all together, but not.

00:58:03: Exactly!

00:58:03: Because it's all linked to their phone and I'm not even talking to each other.

00:58:09: They may text each other But you're not really talking with one another.

00:58:12: You know.

00:58:13: some of the most warm and fulfilling times in my life Most people's lives is when... All of a sudden there's click With somebody next to you.

00:58:21: You talk to person.

00:58:22: You understand There's some kind of emotion.

00:58:27: We're losing that we're losing.

00:58:29: there are other types of clicks that were getting but it's not the real emotional bond.

00:58:35: It is exactly the point.

00:58:37: you know and I love that.

00:58:38: you said in traffic, where are we going?

00:58:41: Because its a great concern for mine.

00:58:44: so i do both long form.

00:58:49: The short form is easier to digest.

00:58:52: That's why the song that I wrote for you, For This Symposium Thank You For Asking Me Is Now At Number Eleven On The Pop Charts.

00:59:01: Ironically things happen when people connect not through their phones but though they're humanists going back into humanity.

00:59:15: and so i have a specific question And it includes myself as a musician and an artist.

00:59:23: What responsibly do you think that artists, musicians or storytellers have in protecting our democracy?

00:59:35: They may have flourished even during dark times of empires but they always had been in their vast majority thinkers for bringing A new perspective, a different perspective to the world.

01:00:04: And that diversity is what democracy is in many ways.

01:00:11: Diverse opinions.

01:00:12: they can live together.

01:00:14: Secondly artists need freedom.

01:00:20: Yes Correct

01:00:22: Authenticity.

01:00:23: What their own authenticity of their character and so on.

01:00:27: If you're not into free society if your not democratic society You may get paid for piece-of art.

01:00:33: yes to do.

01:00:35: But it will be censored, correct?

01:00:39: It won't be you yes!

01:00:42: How much I mean then becomes then doesn't this not really hard.

01:00:48: its a production simply production or someone.

01:00:53: we may do productions for others but in our free society are allowed to express what she wants and that capacity to express is your own self, it's the lifeline of democracy.

01:01:15: The idea that we all have a voice and an equal voice is a basis for democracy.

01:01:22: now so artists are.

01:01:25: they're expressing their voice but they open the mind too.

01:01:29: They give you new perspective.

01:01:30: So let's say in ancient Greece theater In ancient Greek theater, we only have about three percent of surviving arts.

01:01:41: Theater art must've been massive.

01:01:45: but if you see the art and theaters that are there a lot is mocking power.

01:01:54: Mocking power You know?

01:01:56: Oh!

01:01:56: We need it today.

01:01:59: And also going against grain some things we think are all right.

01:02:07: in the middle of The Peloponnesian War, this is Stratis.

01:02:15: The theater that was about women who decided to strike by not having sex with their men so they would stop war.

01:02:28: That wasn't a middle-of-the-war.

01:02:30: That's incredible story.

01:02:34: So having this freedom To be able to say, hey something's wrong here or let's think about it.

01:02:41: You know just have time to think about this Have you notice?

01:02:45: That's what art is.

01:02:49: I Love what you said But i also want to add one more thing.

01:02:57: i Think that if as you said if artists are free They can Be non-specific and It carries More weight.

01:03:05: you Know i tell people you know a lot of master classes i've given and they present their songs to me.

01:03:12: And the songs are like, oh I love my girlfriend!

01:03:14: Love, love, love... There's so many other ways.

01:03:17: just say that without saying you're in love with her.

01:03:22: To be honest there was a band in Los Angeles which i got to meet years ago but I co-wrote this song for them because nothing ever happened with it.

01:03:32: But then they wrote us a song which I did write as a writer.

01:03:36: It is Randy Goodrum.

01:03:38: The song that they had was called, When Forever Is Through I'll Be Over You.

01:03:43: And it stuck out in my mind when I started my career like wow what a great way to say I love you.

01:03:51: then say i love you or democracy as you say the freedom That artists should have Or could Have is something that I feel that Europe has and Greece Has That I don't have that voice when i'm working in China, for example.

01:04:14: And...I am always cautious of- I mean it's easy for me because im a musician.

01:04:19: There is no words But there was song or TV series In the movie that do..i had to go through censorship and have them write Chinese word.

01:04:31: So what you say so powerful?

01:04:34: You know we need be free And it's something that I basically took for granted until recently.

01:04:44: Yeah, thank you so

01:04:45: much.

01:04:45: You're right!

01:04:47: You artists can say things in a different way and actually love...you can say them in a much sexier way then.

01:04:54: this is sort of like a blunt-I-love-you kind thing.

01:04:57: It's much nicer.

01:04:59: But you reminded me during the dictatorship in Greece one way we resisted was to go to Guats as they called them little bars and sing songs that were banned.

01:05:16: And like Theodorakis, and others in certain poets.

01:05:20: –Theodorakis was banned?

01:05:21: I didn't know that.

01:05:22: okay!

01:05:22: Absolutely yeah-yeah it was banned.

01:05:26: um...I remember there was a nice guy.

01:05:30: my father wasn't jailed.

01:05:33: he was an essential jail in Athens.

01:05:38: you could see this the main street.

01:05:40: and um, This guy was a fan of my father's.

01:05:44: And he would drink a bit and then he would go on.

01:05:47: He would sing Theodorakis under his window.

01:05:50: Wow!

01:05:51: Then it will be picked up and beaten-up.

01:05:53: But then we'd come back... ...and back again and back again singing in Beaten Up Again and Back Again.

01:06:01: It is quite amazing but if police came into to that bar they would hum the song or put, you know like just la-la-la without words.

01:06:13: You know so that it wouldn't really... So this was a freedom.

01:06:18: This is way to express their freedom.

01:06:22: That's truly powerful!

01:06:23: You've added another dimension in this talk which is the power of music.

01:06:28: But I wanna ask what do say every young person in Greece today if he had one minute?

01:06:37: What would you tell them?

01:06:40: I don't need mon winds.

01:06:41: Don't give up hope, keep imagining that there's a better world organized for it.

01:06:48: Get together!

01:06:50: Don't cocoon in your little social media groups Talk to each other work with eachother Physically back to the people Back to your neighborhood and friends And create the worlds You believe is much better.

01:07:11: That's beautiful.

01:07:12: And as a world leader, what is the greatest misunderstanding that people have about leadership?

01:07:26: I think there are conventional sort of stereotypes with leaders who has solutions and get selected to solve problems so on.

01:07:45: I apologize, three types of leaders.

01:07:48: There are many types and many variations but sort as a quick kind of an apology which i think we need to think.

01:07:57: one is the leader when dealing with lots of crisis.

01:08:05: now We have insecurity, climate change and so on.

01:08:10: Andemic The first knee-jerk reaction.

01:08:14: most leaders back to normal.

01:08:18: Let's get back You know, let's keep what we would be had.

01:08:23: Just keep it as was things have gotten bad.

01:08:26: Let us just go back to normal.

01:08:28: however that and then usually That is a bit of technocratic kind Of thing too We bring in experts And so on.

01:08:37: how do you get back To normal?

01:08:39: What does this?

01:08:41: It doesn't recognize the back to Normal.

01:08:43: The normal we had Was not really normal.

01:08:46: You know, if we have a pandemic.

01:08:47: We had a pandemic because we've been destroying our climate.

01:08:51: If we had to financial crisis, we had a finance crisis because there were bubbles or it was bad governance.

01:08:56: if we had similar the migratory flows We haven't because we'd had wars.

01:09:03: you know Afghanistan and in Syria and then you know Iraq and so on.

01:09:08: Yeah, we've we've got huge inequalities So we need that.

01:09:14: so doesn't always help.

01:09:17: Help people.

01:09:19: guys something's wrong with our silence.

01:09:20: Let's think what we can do.

01:09:22: Then there's another type of leader the Trumpian style.

01:09:26: I'm a solution.

01:09:27: yeah, you know, I'm pollution.

01:09:30: I Will I will agree with you?

01:09:31: There is a. yes things are bad this is bad that's bad so on.

01:09:36: but i have a solution and I'm coming in to save You basically vote the person then if you do often happens, then that person usually a he will hit on a brick wall because things won't work.

01:09:57: You know terrorists are going to save the American economy.

01:10:00: it didn't work.

01:10:02: so then you have to blame somebody correct?

01:10:06: It's the bad guys...it's the migrants..the other side is China....you have to.

01:10:16: And once you polarize the society, you incapacitate it to actually even discuss these issues in any serious way.

01:10:27: So what I would like to see as a leadership is one that comes and says guys i have a compass let's go this way.

01:10:33: Let's agree where we want to go.

01:10:36: now We wanna just decide if they want this or not?

01:10:50: God that has everything and I even if I was you know the best intellectual in the world, I wouldn't have be having to expertise in every area.

01:11:00: Let's build this society together.

01:11:04: who bring people?

01:11:05: then mobilize Society Bring a dialogue Create debates not polarized And allow for the new ideas to emerge and create consensus.

01:11:19: So it's more of Capacity building of our society a learning process both for the leader and for society.

01:11:26: now That's not always popular because people are saying I we want to strong leader.

01:11:30: What does it strongly remain?

01:11:31: It

01:11:32: you wanna be dominated by somebody.

01:11:34: come on You want a person that's gonna listen to you, or you want a persons going to hear you Not take revenge on somebody else cuz that's what or not?

01:11:43: just blow up the system.

01:11:44: Okay, blow-up the system.

01:11:45: let's change this if where one goal.

01:11:48: so i think these are things We really need change in the way we think of leadership.

01:11:53: And it's not easy because sometimes people say, hey I don't want to get so involved with daily things and so on okay?

01:11:59: We need mechanisms to bring people in that...and give them more time too!

01:12:04: Actually Aristotle-we were talking about time-Aristotle.

01:12:07: he was saying democracy has one positive thing—that is collective intelligence.

01:12:14: He was critical of democracy but he said, to solve problems because you have the intelligence of everybody, it's better than the experts.

01:12:25: Aristotle was saying.

01:12:27: he did say however that democracy will not work if you have high inequalities.

01:12:31: one reason is because it creates injustices then polarizes and that brings chaos and demagogues and tyrants.

01:12:39: but another reason was people have to have enough money Time to be a citizen that we need to give people time in their lives To come to solve the community problems and our national problems.

01:13:01: but create the institutions for this input For this.

01:13:05: Participate it for them to have agency and ownership of decisions.

01:13:09: We may

01:13:09: right I mean, I mean we've got technology and spirituality you know there's.

01:13:16: There's like a war between them You know?

01:13:18: I don't know how do we solve that?

01:13:20: but there's such a dominance on technology today that people aren't thinking they just, you know been sucked into this technology and I think it has to be way we can move forward with the advancement of course of AI which is another topic.

01:13:38: We'll discuss at Symposium.

01:13:42: But you're right spirituality not in the dogmatic religious sense.

01:13:51: Yes, when the end?

01:13:53: What is the meaning of our lives?

01:13:55: You know if it's just to amass as much gadgets or wealth Which is not easy anyway today for most people Or just to look through the next application to solve your problems.

01:14:10: We lose the meeting of life.

01:14:12: we forget.

01:14:12: that way in our life is Living with each other learning from each other talking to each other enjoying life together and building better life together?

01:14:24: I think that's so true.

01:14:28: And just because this podcast is called Towards Humanity, you're such an exemplary human being... ...and i'm thrilled to know you.

01:14:38: after everything you've witnessed what do you still believe about human beings?

01:14:43: Just a question ahead for you.

01:14:51: We have the capacity but our history shows it.

01:14:55: We have both the capacity to be carried away in violence and societies which are brutal, but down deep.

01:15:11: as human beings we're a communal animal.

01:15:15: We are political animals as Aristotle would say And we have the capacity To really create societies.

01:15:24: that we've done so at times.

01:15:26: So let's First of all in ourselves, you know souls make the choice and fight for them adjust society.

01:15:40: I love that That's.

01:15:42: I'm with you definitely on that.

01:15:44: i want to close With a very interesting question george.

01:15:48: if politics was to disappear tomorrow And only humanity remained What would George Papandreo most?

01:15:57: Wanted to contribute to the world?

01:16:02: so i'll push back a bit on the question.

01:16:05: I think as long as human beings exist politics will exist.

01:16:14: Fair enough,

01:16:16: unless AI takes over and we are no longer masters of our fate and AI or whatever else technology for entity controls us This will be political because politics is much wider than what we usually assume.

01:16:42: Now, if you mean politics in a conventional sense like parties...

01:16:45: I

01:16:46: do.

01:16:46: I do yes.

01:16:48: then um i think would and always thought of this was got into politics dictatorships, revolutions personal experiences a sense of fighting for justice because I saw so many injustices torture incarcerations jailings in my family but exiles and so on.

01:17:25: So this would just drove me to get into politics as we know it today.

01:17:29: But if wasn't i would be still...I think around to deliberate with people talk try to see how we can better our society, maybe an activist in some movement.

01:17:42: Maybe teaching or certainly learning all the time?

01:17:47: I'd still be around trying to see the world getting better.

01:17:53: I think you're all of those things actually and it's such a pleasure to have you on today George many more discussions and solving problems, adding what I can as a human being.

01:18:09: As an artist or musician?

01:18:11: And that's how we move the world forward is change the channel.

01:18:16: direct people to watch the play on right not left.

01:18:21: Mark you've already been contributing with your music art contributions.

01:18:33: Change the channel because there are new channels like the one you just created here About humanity.

01:18:42: Thank you so thank

01:18:43: you, thank you.